Equestrian jobs in NZ

[andrew3001]

Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
terrible situation.

I spoke to the first employer and they expected her to go out on a
visitors visa and work for cash. They said they didn't bother with that
tax nonsense - or something to that effect.

Yes, too many like this. When the current disaster is resolved, she
should report this employer to the Labour Department.

My daughter did apply for a Working Holiday Work Permit

Great.

http://www.yardandgroom.com/jobs/jobs.aspx?country=NZ

Truly amazing! I would never have guessed.

The farm she is now is a stud farm which exports I'm not sure what - but
eggs, embryos or semen I suppose.

OK so not just any farm, a serious place.

She is frightened to tell the employer she wants to leave as he flies
off the handle at the slightest thing and shouts at her like a madman.

Then she should also report to the police.

I've been on the point of this and have provided her with the local
police number, but must work with her. As you might imagine she has very
little time and energy for anything. At the low points she is not in a
fit state for me to arrange a taxi to the airport. The 30 hr journey is
gruelling even with a good start.

30 hours by taxi? There must be a better way.
Paradoxically, because I'm an atheist, I would suggest she contact the
nearest church.
It's starting to sound to me like what she really needs is (a) a better
job; if not, a quick return to you and home. More on this later.

I'm currently looking at local B&Bs
hoping to find one that will pick her up and let her recuperate before
the journey home.

Not sure this will work but, of course, it's worth a try.

If you could put me in touch with a good employer with a vacancy, I'd be
extremely grateful. It seems a shame for her to turn tail and come home
at this stage and I think that after a period of recovery she might be
persuaded to face a third go at it.

Yes, i agree.

The second job was fine at the start
- a "honeymoon" period it seems but has severely degenerated since then
and now she has decided to leave, but with her massive amount of
baggage, fatigue, friendship with the girl she works with and knowledge
that the employer will go beserk when she tells him etc etc it is not as
simple as you might imagine. There is also the point that she badly
wanted this second attempt to work out.

OK. Leaving the two points I want to discuss in detail for later, we
(a) This asshole employer. When she gets to the point where she must
tell him goodbye, she should ask for a police offer to be there when
she gives the news.
(b) Massive amount of baggage. The local church will almost certainly
help with some sort of transport. That's my guess, anyway.
(c) Fatigue. Yes, there's simply no easy way around this obstacle. What
she needs, perhaps, is one day's rest before she tells him goodbye.
Perhaps a phone call to a doctor who will visit, or again the church.
Somehow she needs to convince her asshole employer that she is sick and
needs a day's rest. Then, next day, with the cop there, she tells him
goodbye. "And don't forget my holiday pay".
(d) Friendship. An unfortunate complication. But she must say goodbye.
Friend might help with transport ‹ a friend of that girl, perhaps.

How are you in touch with her?

Mobile phone - she has a NZ Vodafone sim which I can top up online. It
is good value for phoning a UK landline.

This is good.
.

<http://www.dol.govt.nz/>

Thanks for the link.
I suppose you mean their
General Enquiries number of
Telephone [phone]

Maybe. The (4) tells us it's a Wellington number. She could also use
their toll-free number 0800 20 90 20
For you if you want to phone them, it looks like the best number to use
is [phone] The (9) tells us this is an Auckland number.
I am in Auckland.

have you read the post by "maus"

No, I missed it. sorry.

- perhaps that is
the kernel of it - that, as the ads in NZ I've referred to show, there
are many youngsters practically asking to be exploited and devaluing the
job. Market Rate is fine with me, but attracting people to jobs with
false promises is not and of course terrorizing them is not either.

Intuitively, i think this is quite true.

and yet you and/or her
are unable to progress the situation, I would be wiling to discuss the
situation with the welfare authorities, the police, the Labour
Department or my lawyer.

could you do anything if she has left the country?

No. I would at best be a humble conduit. They would need first-hand
evidence from her, specially if a prosecution were in the works.
But if she is, for example, out of the country and back with you,
complaints to the authorities are unimportant, I think. Let's forget
them for now and work on getting your girl either a new job or a trip
home.

I want to arrange a taxi to the airport, and
think this is likely within the next few days.

A 30 hour taxi ride will cost an arm and a leg. Try the church
suggestion. Trip to the airport for $50 donation to the church.

Which island are you in?

Auckland is in the North Island.
Now, let's look at practical ideas:‹
First, a new job perhaps. TradeMe has a number of jobs. TradeMe was set
up by a young kid for two or three thousand dollars. He sold it a year
or so later to Australia's Fairfax organization for, I think, $750
million! One of the better success stories. One reason is that the site
is well-designed. I earn my living on the web and I am always getting
grumpy with damned fool web designers who rise above their own level of
competence.
TradeMe is at<http://trademe.co.nz>
Unfortunately, there are only 2 jobs of interest today
<http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryAttributeSearchResults.aspx?mca
t=5000-&sidebar=0&140=&selected155=&154=&144=-1&144=-1&142=&153=horse%20
groom&searchString=horse%20groom&generalSearch_keypresses=11&generalSear
ch_suggested=0>
Oops only one of them is in New Zealand!
<http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-me-jobs/Agriculture-fishing-forestry/Far
ming/listing-328316282.htm?key=2101380>
It's for only four months. You could phone the advertiser on +64 (21)
607 853
Now for the alternative, getting her home to you.
Depending on where she is, she could look in the phone book for a local
church. Phone and discuss. Then again, depending on where she is will
decide what the nearest airport is. Maybe you know this already. If
not, try Google Earth. do you have it already?
I see you're using Linux. I'm on a Mac and the Google Earth site is so
"helpful" it automatically sends me to the Mac page so I can't give you
the exact address for a Linux version but start here
<http://www.google.com/earth/download/ge/>
Once you have it installed, you will be able to see exactly where your
girl is and where the nearest airport is. Look for little cyan
pictograms with a stylized plane. Click it to get the three-letter IATA
code for it then go to (for example) Expedia
<http://www.expedia.co.nz/?EntryUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eexpedia%2Ecom%2Fd
efault%2Easp&rfrr=>
Use that three-letter code to specify your start point and enter your
own airport as the end point.
Do her a favour and let her spend a couple of nights in Thailand on the
way home. I fly often from Auckland to the North (Moscow, Riga,
Hamburg, Nice). I hate flying so I always stop over in Thailand for a
while so I can get a proper sleep in a real bed.
It's not expensive. If you want to give her just one night for a sleep,
she should remain in Bangkok. Stay at KT Guest House
<http://ktguesthouse.com/> not luxury, not expensive, lovely people.
Taxis to and from the airport should be around 700 baht. GBP 1 buys THB
47.85
If you can afford to be a tad more generous, give her three or more
nights. Send her to Pattaya. Stay at Centera Beach Hotel (might still
be known as Nova Lodge by many taxi drivers).
<http://centerabeachhotel.com/en/index.php> Again not expensive. And
it's absolutely amazing to be only 100 metres from a superb beach!
Again rooms are nothing special but these two places are priced right
for my pocket and I love them both.
To get from the airport (BKK) to Pattaya, send email to
his first name or family name. I've used him 4 or 5 times over the last
few years. Not much English but very obliging. About THB 1100 from
airport to Pattaya. (About 90 to 120 minutes). He will be standing in
the arrival hall (outside, after Customs and immigration and baggage
collection) waving a sign with your girls's name on it.
Bangkok airport is very civilized. There are stainless steel barriers
to stop the unwashed hordes from filling up the public walkways while
they wait. So she will exit the customs area, walk a few metres then
turn right, looking for someone standing behind the barrier with that
sign.
Unfortunately, because he's not an "authorised" taxi, his car will be
parked way over there somewhere in the public carpark so be prepared to
push that trolly 200 metres or so.
I usually put most of my lugggae in storage at the airport (requires
careful pre-planning when packing). The place to leave the luggage is
on a different level. Better she asks than for me to try to describe
how to get there.
Ask him to stop at a supermarket. Thailand is very hot all day and all
night so she will surely want to buy some bottled water for herself and
for him.
Breakfast at Nova ‹ I mean Centera Beach ‹ is nice and included in the
price. At KT Guest House it is not so wonderful and it is not included.
Both have swimming pools.
Thai people are absolutely lovely. Kind, gentle, always looking for a
polite way to relieve you of your money! There will be a ton of cheap
stuff for sale, seducing her. She must be aware that much of the
trinkets are fake. Clothing is dirt cheap and a must to buy.
Getting around in Pattaya is a piece of cake. Look for things that are
obvious "mini-buses", all chrome and decorations. They're called "baht
buses". From memory 20 baht for an unlimited distance. Out of the
hotel, turn right, walk 50 metres to the road, catch one going from
right to left and get out at "Walking Street" a couple of kilometres
away. Fantastic experience. Loud and brash at night but totally safe
even for a shy teen girl on her own. Touts everywhere but they are
harmless. Also many european volunteer "tourist police" who are always
very helpful.
If she's out at night alone, Walking street is probably the safest
place to be. I've never encountered a drunk, aggressive male Thai but
they do exist. I read about them in the papers
http://pattayamail.com/
http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/
Don't rent a waterjet ski without first examining it very carefully.
Some of the jokers who rent them make a point of alleging that you
damaged it and now must pay. If you get trapped in such a circumstance,
demand that a Tourist Police officer comes to help you defeat this
common rip-off.
If your girl has led a "sheltered" life, she will need to look the
other way a lot (or learn to forget her nightmare Kiwi experience and
just relax, laugh and smile a lot). Pattaya exists for prostitution.
It's everywhere but it's regulated (even though technically illegal),
fun-loving and harmless. Well, so I'm told. It's not my thing. I'm
happily married.
If I were in Thailand just for a quick sleep, I would limit myself to
sampling one or two Pattaya restaurants, ambling lazily along Walking
Street and going for a swim. Or, if I were staying in Bangkok, get a
taxi to take her to Pantip Plaza or Fortune City for a shopping
experience. Taxi from KT to Fortune is only 60 baht.
Well, I hope these scribbles will turn your girls's experience into
something a little better than it's been so far.
If you want to engage in some private correspondence, email me at
Good luck, HP

Hi, Thanks again for your interest, time and offer of assistance. A lot
has changed since my first post. To summarise, daughter and the other
girl have left together and are both happy in a hostel where they intend
to relax, recover and plan their next move. I'm delighted daughter is
not traveling alone. On intimating an intention of leaving, after a full
and hard days work, and despite offering to stay on a few days they were
told to collect their bags and dumped at the door of an expensive hostel
in the local small town - with no wages to show for an estimated 250 +
hrs work in the 3 weeek stint with no days off there. Fortunately the
hostel was not full and after a comfy night there, they shared a taxi to
a hostel in Christchurch. (not 30hrs!! -that is the flight home! Sorry
my phrasing was ambiguous)

It seems the taxi-driver, like you, was outraged at their treatment and
has informed them of the various authorities to mention in order to
encourage wage payment. (Including reporting an accident where the other
girl had her foot stood on by a stallion and was suspected broken. She
was allowed a few days off then shouted at for crying due to pain from
her swollen bruised foot when made to work again - and told she was
malingering.)

So my daughter has been in NZ for a month and a half, has worked an
estimated 350 hrs and has not been paid. At the moment she is asking
politely without invoking threat of authorities.

Thanks for looking up a job. After a few days rest, a third job,
equestrian or otherwise, might be sought.

I do have Google Earth but use mainly google maps. I've only recently
discovered you can go to an area and put in a business or trade - eg
taxi, police, church, hostel, B&B and Google maps attempts to show 10
"teardrops" and all the remainder as small red circles - quick,
efficient and easy, and then street view is there ready to use and such
a fantastic resource. I'm also using Stellarium Planetarium - a free
astronomy app which allows me to view a representation of the night sky
over my daughter; Amazing to see the sun in the North and moving the
"wrong" way - ie left to right and to see the different orientation of
the stars - Orions belt is more or less horizontal whereas here it is
more vertical. It fascinates me also to "see" the moon over on the other
side of the world then view it here 12 hrs or so later.

Thanks also for the info on Bankok. She went via Hong Kong and may go
back by Los Angeles so she has gone right round the globe, but your info
is still interesting and might be useful.

The post by "maus" that you missed was to uk.business.agriculture only

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.business.agriculture/browse_thread/thread/fa8bb42200793d56/e34909348bd4870a?hl=en

Far too common an experience, not only NZ, but US and Australia as
well. Probably better known here, as more Irish do the travel thing.
(Even what you would think would be reputable people exploit girls,
as they know girls are horse mad, and _will_ work in s*** jobs for
little money.) There is a racket called apprentiship, children get
pocket money and their keep for working with horses for some years
until they either get sense or some sort of papers. The government
started organizing those youngsters into a course here (R.A.C.E), in
which they attend classes as well, but with the crises, that is under
threat.
Besides that, New Zealanders and Australians work hard, usually
harder than in these islands. What a lot learn out there, usually
`townies' from here, is hard work. I don't know how many I know that
went to do a year in Australasia, come back changed people, and did
well here after.
Unneeded horse are a glut here, costs 200-300 euros to get them put down
and corpses disposed of, and many are just abandoned. Not unknown for
someone to hire a farm, put down a deposit, put in horses and disappear.
(Chips?.. These are not those sort of horses).
Very Sad.

In general terms and in cynical mode, I am wondering if this is the
normal modus operadi; advertise the job far afield and make is sound
attractive by grossly understating hours and grossly overstating
accommodation, food, remuneration etc. If possible, get the girl there
thinking she has stumbled upon a wonderful opportunity, can trust you
and she doesn't need to bother with work permit or tax.

Once she is there, she will have spent so much getting there that
further travel is a problem, another job without a work permit is also a
problem and don't give them internet so they can't find one anyway.
Employer can either overwork and underpay, keep putting off payment, or
promise to pay in kind and the fail to deliver. Make sure they are so
tired by excessive hours that they have no energy to even think about
alternatives. By the time the victim works out that staying is stupid,
employer has done very well out of the arrangment and there are plenty
of new girls ready to take her place. If the girl doesn't have work
permit she will not complain. If she has no backup she very likely will
not bother, and in cases where she does approach authorities, how can
she prove what she says if employer denies it?

I wonder how I can warn others.

Some keywords perhaps: horse equestrian job abroad, new zealand, gap
year employment scam stud farm live in job bad employer problem abusive
slave labour (no slur on NZ intended - maus points out plenty of other
countries are the same and it may just be the bad scamming employers who
have to advertise abroad)

If you are contemplating an equestrian job in New Zealand (and probably
any far away country) Flying to an instant Summer and a dream job might
encourage wishful thinking so CAUTION.

Suggestions. You won't be the first employee they've had - so first ask
if they've had a foreign worker before, then ask if they'd help you
contact that ex worker so you could speak to them - reasonable enough
surely if they've nothing to hide. (plenty loopholes I know but might
turn up something) It is not much use speaking to a current worker.

Ask lots of questions and get terms in writing, or at least write it
down, read it back and ask them to confirm.

Find them on Google Maps and attempt to phone up a neighbour - eg a
nearby business - B&B perhaps. If they don't know them tell them why you
are ringing and ask for a suggestion of who you could speak to. Keep
trying. Simply ask the neighbour if they know of Mr X and is he a good
employer.

Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.

Any other suggestions anyone?

[Buddenbrooks]

employer.
Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.
Any other suggestions anyone?

If this was the other way around, a NZ girl coming to the UK and starting a
job without a work Visa the employer
would be liable to a £10,000 fine.

[maus]

Post by Buddenbrooks

employer.
Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.
Any other suggestions anyone?

If this was the other way around, a NZ girl coming to the UK and starting a
job without a work Visa the employer
would be liable to a £10,000 fine.

Also, with some of the NZ girls I have met, be assaulted.

( In Dick Francis's Books, generally very good, but his opinion
of stable staff is low. Compare with his fawning approach to
the owners (Lord This and Lord That).. lowers my opinion of him)

I was trying to train a young pup years ago in a field beside
a trainers yard, and at one point I could hear the `Boss'
abusing a stable lad over something. he said things that I wouldn't
say to the dog.

[maus]

Post by andrew3001

Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
terrible situation.

Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.
Any other suggestions anyone?

A few:
I wouldn't rate people to a casual caller by telephone, you don't know
who you are talking to. Its not unknown to have your opinion recorded
and played on radio later.

My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
`learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.

One daughter went to Noo Jerk when promised a job in a bar, discovered
that it was completely illegal (I had told her before she went, but she
believed the bullshit artist), luckily I had a cousin that took her in
when the accomodation turned out to be a crackhouse.

Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
:)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
tTake a few days extra and get out there.
(I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)

[andrew3001]

Post by maus

Post by andrew3001

Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
terrible situation.

Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.
Any other suggestions anyone?

I wouldn't rate people to a casual caller by telephone, you don't know
who you are talking to. Its not unknown to have your opinion recorded
and played on radio later.

Daughter wouldn't ask this question anyway but I don't suppose there
would have been anything to lose by trying it. A brief "Yes I worked
there and he was a fair honest straightforward employer" would not
really not matter even if recorded and played on the radio, and the
opposite "No - worst experience in my life" is hard to imagine as the
employer wouldn't have passed on details of an abused employee.

Post by maus
My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
`learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.
One daughter went to Noo Jerk when promised a job in a bar, discovered
that it was completely illegal (I had told her before she went, but she
believed the bullshit artist), luckily I had a cousin that took her in
when the accomodation turned out to be a crackhouse.

So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
have been a good thing.

Post by maus
Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
:)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
tTake a few days extra and get out there.
(I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)

I think I'll be voting for LA.

[caroline]

Post by andrew3001
So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
have been a good thing.

Hi Andrew

Been following your thread with interest...sadly your daughter learned many
of the major pitfalls with working with horses very quickly, and it looks
like she learned the hard way. Trust me, I've been there too! And you
don't have to go to the other side of the world for it to happen either, it
can and does happen frequently in the UK too.

Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better quality
yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least one
of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.

I know yardandgroom.com was mentioned at some point during the thread, but
don't remember by whom...however, if she did secure this job via the Y&G
website they claim on their website that they would welcome her feedback on
the employers she may have found through their website, good or bad!
I know when I complained about an employer of mine, that I found on there a
few years back, it was taken seriously, and their subsequent ads were
removed. So might be worth a try, for nothing else but to ensure that
someone else doesn't go through the same hell.

http://www.yardandgroom.com/Support.aspx

Plenty of world class sport yards in Europe would be delighted to have her
I'm sure. In answer to a previous query, UK-trained competition grooms are
sought after worldwide, hence the reason why so many overseas yards
advertise on UK equestrian recruitment sites & publications etc. The
'Grooms Corner' on Eurodressage is always a good place to keep an eye on,
not *all* the jobs are 100% dressage if dressage isn't her thing, many jobs
advertised there are looking for stud workers competent enough to work with
world-class sports stallions...and Europe is a lot closer to home if it all
goes pear-shaped.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/market/grooms-corner

For some more immediate assistance, it may be worth checking out some ex-pat
websites, for fellow Brits based in New Zealand who may be able to give some
short-term advice or assistance, or long term, if she's determined to stay
there.

Best of luck, and do please keep us updated with her progress

[caroline]

Replying to my own post...but if she's not already a member, both she and
you could do with checking out the British Grooms Association (there's
support/advice offered for parents too!):

http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/

[andrew3001]

Post by caroline

Post by andrew3001
So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
have been a good thing.

Hi Andrew

Hi,

Post by caroline
Been following your thread with interest...sadly your daughter learned many
of the major pitfalls with working with horses very quickly, and it looks
like she learned the hard way. Trust me, I've been there too! And you
don't have to go to the other side of the world for it to happen either, it
can and does happen frequently in the UK too.
Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better quality
yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least one
of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.
I know yardandgroom.com was mentioned at some point during the thread, but
don't remember by whom...however, if she did secure this job via the Y&G
website they claim on their website that they would welcome her feedback on
the employers she may have found through their website, good or bad!
I know when I complained about an employer of mine, that I found on there a
few years back, it was taken seriously, and their subsequent ads were
removed. So might be worth a try, for nothing else but to ensure that
someone else doesn't go through the same hell.
http://www.yardandgroom.com/Support.aspx

where it says:

"If you would like to give your feedback about your experience in using
YardandGroom, whether good or bad then we would love to hear from you."

Good. I'm glad if they take an interest and intend to see they get some
feedback asap.

Post by caroline
Plenty of world class sport yards in Europe would be delighted to have her
I'm sure. In answer to a previous query, UK-trained competition grooms are
sought after worldwide, hence the reason why so many overseas yards
advertise on UK equestrian recruitment sites& publications etc. The
'Grooms Corner' on Eurodressage is always a good place to keep an eye on,
not *all* the jobs are 100% dressage if dressage isn't her thing, many jobs
advertised there are looking for stud workers competent enough to work with
world-class sports stallions...and Europe is a lot closer to home if it all
goes pear-shaped.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/market/grooms-corner
For some more immediate assistance, it may be worth checking out some ex-pat
websites, for fellow Brits based in New Zealand who may be able to give some
short-term advice or assistance, or long term, if she's determined to stay
there.
Best of luck, and do please keep us updated with her progress

Thanks - will try to.

Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does
not intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.

[caroline]

"andrew3001" wrote >

Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does not
intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.

You're welcome and I completely understand, especially after this
experience.

However, for a fairly reasonable membership fee, even if she joins for one
year only, it is my understanding that she'll have immediate access to their
legal support, which is in place for grooms working both home & abroad.
Worth checking with them anyway, to see if they can help with her immediate
situation.

[andrew3001]

"andrew3001" wrote>

Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does not
intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.

You're welcome and I completely understand, especially after this
experience.
However, for a fairly reasonable membership fee, even if she joins for one
year only, it is my understanding that she'll have immediate access to their
legal support, which is in place for grooms working both home& abroad.
Worth checking with them anyway, to see if they can help with her immediate
situation.

OK thanks will look into it.

[jcdill]

Post by andrew3001
But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then?

Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
reputable stables.

Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
"working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
good place to work.

Post by andrew3001
I think I'll be voting for LA.

If she's going to spend a few hours or days in a layover, bring her thru
San Francisco. She can take BART into SF from the Airport and see the
city on foot, without needing a car. Can't do that in LA - visiting LA
requires a car. (Plus, LA isn't nearly as interesting as SF :-).

jc

[andrew3001]

Post by andrew3001
But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then?

Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
reputable stables.
Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
"working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
good place to work.

Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.
Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
was such a sports horse producer. I did think of ringing the Sports
Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were
unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his
interests first.

[jcdill]

Post by andrew3001

Post by andrew3001
But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then?

Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
reputable stables.
Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
"working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
good place to work.

Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.

If they are advertising for international help using the internet, then
said help certainly knows how to go on the internet and blog or tweet or
post to FB about their experiences, etc.

Post by andrew3001
Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
was such a sports horse producer.

That could be a sign that they operate under more than one name. Or
that they are a very new concern.

Post by andrew3001
I did think of ringing the Sports
Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were
unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his
interests first.

Or they could say "we have no such member". Often people who run scams
and cons say they are members of societies when they aren't members. If
the stable IS a member, then you should complain to the society about
the stable's lack of ethics when it comes to hiring help.

jc

[Buddenbrooks]

Post by andrew3001
Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.
Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
was such a sports horse producer. I did think of ringing the Sports Horse
Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were unlikely to
have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his interests first.

If you look at the NZ government web site:

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/worktemporarily/requirements/essentialwork.htm

You will see the process the employer has to comply with to allow them to
employ a foreign worker.

If you feel the employer has not complied then reporting them to the
appropriate government department will make it more difficult for them to
recruit legally in the future. It will also make it more difficult for them
to claim a one off over sight in the future if they try again.

If your daughter was paid anything she might write to the NZ tax authority
giving all the details asking if she has any NZ tax liability. This will
highlight that the employer is paying cash in hand and not declaring to the
tax authorities.

A full tax audit will bother the employer more than a bad internet blog.

[andrew3001]

Post by Buddenbrooks

Post by andrew3001
Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with
internetification. Certainly I had a good look for the first employer
and could find absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone
number and that there was such a sports horse producer. I did think of
ringing the Sports Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but
thought they were unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd
probably put his interests first.

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/worktemporarily/requirements/essentialwork.htm

She is not there under that provision (Essential Skills Work Policy) but
under the United Kingdom Working Holiday Scheme

Post by Buddenbrooks
You will see the process the employer has to comply with to allow them
to employ a foreign worker.
If you feel the employer has not complied then reporting them to the
appropriate government department will make it more difficult for them
to recruit legally in the future. It will also make it more difficult
for them to claim a one off over sight in the future if they try again.
If your daughter was paid anything she might write to the NZ tax
authority giving all the details asking if she has any NZ tax liability.
This will highlight that the employer is paying cash in hand and not
declaring to the tax authorities.
A full tax audit will bother the employer more than a bad internet blog.

Paid nothing sofar unless you count board & lodging - which is
despicable really after 350 hrs or so hard work. A suitable punishment
would surely be for them to be forced to travel over here at their
expense, to do the same amount of work free for me - with frequent
verbal abuse and belittlement thrown in. I'd need to have both employers
at the same time though so one could abuse the other though, as I'm not
very good as a Mr Angry.

[Una]

These "working holidays" are common, and they have a really long history.
The first "jackaroos" in Australia were young men sent from Europe to
learn the trade of cattle or sheep ranching, preparatory to pioneering
a new ranch and getting rich. They were ranch managers in training and
ranch hands were native Australians. Today, young Europeans still go to
Australia to learn a profession called "jackarooing", except the work
is being a ranch hand. The big ranching conglomerates have glossy web
sites and expensive marketing aimed at recruiting young and unskilled
workers from overseas.

It looks like a racket, similar to summer season jobs on guest ranches
in the United States. Horse crazy young women take jobs there thinking
they will be working with horses, only to be put to work cleaning guest
quarters and serving meals and washing dishes 7 days a week.

Una

[andrew3001]

Post by andrew3001
But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then?

Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
reputable stables.
Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
"working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
people to not post anything,

Ha! prophetic words - sort of. I think I need to shut up here now for a
while - and be glad I took out travel insurance for her which includes
legal cover. It is my intention though to post update in due course.

[Una]

Well, she is in an exploitive labor situation but she is not an illegal,
she is not illiterate, there is no significant language barrier, she has
her own phone and is in contact with her family, and people are looking
out for her even if at very long distance. It could be so much worse.

Una

[jcdill]

Post by maus
My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
`learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.

When I was a teenager I got a job at a local restaurant, and the owner
was that sort of jerk. Kept changing the days and hours and ultimately
wanted me to work a split shift (work lunch, 3 hours off, then work
dinner) 7 days a week, and not paying even minimum wage! Then he tried
hitting on me. I told my father, and my father and uncle had a brief
visit with him and picked-up my paycheck with full pay for all the hours
I had worked.

Obviously that's not something one can do when working at a stable job
on the other side of the planet from home. BUT the core source of this
problem is that you don't need to go 1/2 way around the world to find
low-paying stable job opportunities. The good stables advertise for
employees locally. The bad ones advertise 1/2 way around the world so
that they can hire naive girls who don't have family locally to stand up
for them. That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
knowing anyone in the destination region. This situation has nothing to
do with "stables in NZ" - this type of problem occurs in any line of
business, and in any place in the world. I bet there are stables in the
UK that advertise in NZ and get naive girls from NZ to come to the UK to
work, with the same results as in this thread.

jc

[jmc]

Post by jcdill

Post by maus
My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
`learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.

When I was a teenager I got a job at a local restaurant, and the owner
was that sort of jerk. Kept changing the days and hours and ultimately
wanted me to work a split shift (work lunch, 3 hours off, then work
dinner) 7 days a week, and not paying even minimum wage! Then he tried
hitting on me. I told my father, and my father and uncle had a brief
visit with him and picked-up my paycheck with full pay for all the hours
I had worked.
jc

I once had a job for a really shady dude. It was basically an office
manager job. Most of the companies he did business with wouldn't even
unload their truck until he paid them, right then, in cash! Gave him
the benefit of the doubt and created a spreadsheet that showed the
status of all his unpaid accounts, chronologically by how long they were
overdue (the 90+ days one was rawthuh long). Apparently he didn't like
that.

Next day he tells me, "Today is your last day, I have a new lady coming
in at noon, please train her". Uh, not only NO but HELL NO. I had to
fight him to get my last paycheck - "not leaving until I have it" - then
went straight to the bank to cash it. In retrospect I should have
demanded cash, but I was able to cash the check.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure one of my first horse jobs, working as a
standardbred groom, was for someone who worked for the Mob. That one
was interesting...

At another horse job I was working approx 77-84 hours a week (14 hour
days not uncommon), one day off every two weeks, and dangerously tired
(handling young sport horses and stallions) so I suggested reducing my
workload to 64 hours a week, and was called a "9 to 5er". That job
didn't last long either.

After a while, you can learn to spot the bad employers, by paying
attention during interviews, asking questions, and carefully listening
(and watching, body language gives a lot away!) the responses.

Until then though, bad experiences do hopefully teach what to avoid :)

jmc

[andrew3001]

Post by jcdill
That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
knowing anyone in the destination region.

Perhaps due diligence would have been to ask here first, but we didn't.
The job was made to sound very attractive and every attempt was made to
check the employer out online - turning up practically nothing.

Fortuntately a friend of an aunties friend was practically on the
doorstep which made escape easier. An estimated 100 hrs in that first
week had taken their toll which reduced options.

And it is NZ. English speaking (well sort of!) and I get the impression
NZ is safer than the UK.

[jcdill]

Post by andrew3001

Post by jcdill
That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
knowing anyone in the destination region.

Perhaps due diligence would have been to ask here first, but we didn't.
The job was made to sound very attractive and every attempt was made to
check the employer out online - turning up practically nothing.

Turning up practically nothing is a big red flag. If they are a big
enough concern to be advertising for help overseas, then there should be
some info about them on the internet.

Post by andrew3001
Fortuntately a friend of an aunties friend was practically on the
doorstep which made escape easier.

I would ask that friend of your aunties friend to go back to the stable
(with the police if necessary) and demand your daughter's pay, including
overtime pay for hours worked more than 8 per day or more than 40 per
week. (Assuming NZ has similar wage rules as the US - you should google
for the exact details.)

Post by andrew3001
An estimated 100 hrs in that first
week had taken their toll which reduced options.
And it is NZ. English speaking (well sort of!) and I get the impression
NZ is safer than the UK.a

I'm not saying NZ is a dangerous place, just that one's options are more
limited the further one is from home, friends, family, etc. And when
you go overseas you are subject to different rules and laws. So you
need to do extra due diligence to learn about what the rules, laws, and
options are, and have a good escape plan if things go sideways.

jc

[maus]

["Followup-To:" header set to uk.business.agriculture.]

Post by jcdill
I'm not saying NZ is a dangerous place, just that one's options are more
limited the further one is from home, friends, family, etc. And when
you go overseas you are subject to different rules and laws. So you
need to do extra due diligence to learn about what the rules, laws, and
options are, and have a good escape plan if things go sideways.

I had a _cunning_ plan years ago, when caught in a pub with a crowd of
dickheads that were in no hurry to go anywhere else, and I would have
no car. (Yes, I know, but this was years ago). Go to toilet, and from
there, walk. If it took hours (before mobile phones), you were still
better off, and I remember an old friend walking along the road, almost
ten miles from his home, when I gave him a lift, same situation. OK in
Ireland, or at a stretch in the UK.. (Old stories of men being in
Connemara while their friends were still in the pub in Camden Town)
Can't do that from New Zealand. SO, you take precautions before you go
. Contacts, the man who sat beside me in school lives in New Zealand.
Lucky him, the way things are turning out here.

[High Priest]

Post by maus
Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
:)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
tTake a few days extra and get out there.
(I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)

Maus, I'm sorry to read that you've developed bad opinion of Bangkok.
Yes, it's noisy but so is every big city. I lived five years in
Moscow. Good luck trying to find some solitude there!

I would not call Bangkok greedy and exploitative. From the moment I
arrive at my favorite shopping places, Pantip Plaza or Fortune City, I
am assaulted by touts trying to sell me porn DVDs or some other shit.
But it's easy to put on a happy face, ignore the and just power ahead.

I shop for computer software (yes, I'm one of the naughty people who
have no conscience about buying pirate DVDs) and pretty clothes for my
wife, daughters and photo models. I always am treated with courtesy by
pleasant people.

I eat Thai food with gusto. Restaurants, the hotel where I'm staying or
even street vendors. The food is invariably well-presented, cheap and
delicious.

Taxis are cheap, fast and plentiful. (Mind you, the Moscow marshrutkas
are also pretty good, as are the trains and buses. Far better than the
piss-poor public transport in Auckland.)

Thai girls are easy on the eye and always willing to engage you in
conversation. And more if you want.

The ladies at the hotel where I usually stay are always happy to see me
and love to spend time trying out their English.

The weather is hard for me to take, soI go out only in the mornings and
evenings. During the hot part of the day I'm either in the swimming
pool or indulging my news addiction on television.

The local beer is not the world's bet but I've been spoiled in New
Zealand. It's cheap though and little drinkie spots are everywhere.

The electrical distribution system is a joke, wires everywhere that
look like a repairman's nightmare or a potential deadly danger.

The footpaths are totally fucked up. You must watch where you're
walking at all times.

Raw opium? Don't hold your breath. Those in the drug scene seem to
stick with marijuana or methamphetamine (called locally "ya ba") but I
think anyone who even thinks about using in Thailand is a total fool.
Jail sentences can be huge and the jails are pure shit. I'm very
liberal and the people I associate with do not know that I am not a
drug user. If there was opium "everywhere" I am sure someone would've
offered it to me by now. If I want to enjoy a drug other than alcohol,
I'll buy some valium because at least it's legal.

I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!

Bangkok's pollution is not so great. A hot day, humid, air pollution
and maybe a smell from polluted rivers combine to make the experience
not so great. That's really the main reason why I go down to Pattaya.
Cooler, less pollution, ocean beaches and breezes. That's the place for
me.

I have not gone out into the countryside. But you're right, i think
it's a must-do for visitors. It's just that I'm not a touristy sort of
person. The only reason I'm there in the first place is to get a good
sleep in a proper bed. So I never have enough time for sightseeing.



Andrew commented

Post by maus
I think I'll be voting for LA.

Of course we don't know his daughter but we did get a little look into
her personality from Andrew's earlier comments. I think Los Angeles
would be less-attractive for her than Pattaya.

In Pattaya, she can walk everywhere or go by inexpensive baht bus.
Accommodation, food, clothing, all cheap.

In Los Angeles, a rental car will be essential, hotel cost an arm and a
leg and everything you want to visit as a tourist is "way over there
somewhere". I spent two years there, living in Laguna Beach and working
in Hollywood. I spent half my life on the 405 freeway. Everything a
tourist might be interested in will cost some sort of money or a big
time investment.

Yes LA has beaches but, unlike Pattaya, you're involved in the hassle
of finding a place to park your rental car, which will then sit there
getting stinking hot and eating up the rental fees. In Pattaya, the
beach is at your door.

And a shy, teenage English girl with not much experience of the big bad
world will be hit on constantly by lecherous assholes who talk with
forked tongues. There's always a scam just around the next corner. In
Pattaya she will be treated with dignity and respect.

Caroline also contributed

Post by maus
Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better
quality
yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least
one
of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.

Why dismayed, Caroline? Semen exports are common from New Zealand
because, somehow, many of the high-end establishments have managed to
push themselves to the top of the industry. New Zealand horses and
semen are in very big demand from top breeders world-wide.

Post by maus
For some more immediate assistance, it may be worth checking out some
ex-pat
websites, for fellow Brits based in New Zealand who may be able to give
some
short-term advice or assistance, or long term, if she's determined to
stay
there.

That's a good idea. Wish I'd thought of it.

Caroline again

Post by maus

Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling...

and Andrew replies

Post by maus
Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with
internetification.

Some people would assure you that New Zealand is a bit behind
everywhere in everything. :-))) There used to be a joke that the
airplane pilot would say, on touchdown, "welcome to New Zealand, ladies
and gentlemen, Please adjust your watches to ten years back"

Most loyal Kiwis would object vigorously but maybe I'm not so loyal.
There are many good thing to say about New Zealand vis a vis the UK but
maybe internet connectivity is not one of them. I earn my living on the
web soI need a reliable connection. I pay twice as much here as I did
in my offices in Hamburg, St Tropez or Moscow for a broadband
connection that is half the speed or less, with a data cap.

On the other hand, look at what the lucky people in South Korea can
access ‹ 1 gigabit per second! Lovely.

New Zealand is about to embark on country-wide fibre optic but that
will take years to complete.

Buddenbrooks also had some excellent suggestions

Post by maus
...reporting them to the
appropriate government department will make it more difficult for them
to
recruit legally in the future...she might write to the NZ tax
authority ...A full tax audit will bother the employer more than a bad internet blog.

To which I would add that there is a quango that receives complaints
about treatment by employers and responds robustly, often on the side
of the complainant.

<http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/problem/authority/>

Andre says "Paid nothing so far unless you count board & lodging" so I
think she should really take steps. She might find herself receiving a
five figure windfall.

Post by maus
[I'm] glad I took out travel insurance for her which includes
legal cover.

Andrew, be careful. I'm not sure what you mean here but, so far, I
haven't read anything that might give rise to a traditional travel
insurance claim.

[Una]

As a young woman traveling alone, I thoroughly enjoyed San Francisco.

Una

[maus]

Post by High Priest

Post by maus
Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
:)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
tTake a few days extra and get out there.
(I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)

Maus, I'm sorry to read that you've developed bad opinion of Bangkok.
Yes, it's noisy but so is every big city. I lived five years in
Moscow. Good luck trying to find some solitude there!

Not my opinions, I must confess, but my son's. He went to Bankok,
then by bus to Cambodia, and around via Vietnam and Laos. Loved
the countryside, hated Bankok. He said that at night in the inns,
lumps of opium were available. Some aging US hippies that went
there and remained in a drugged dream, supported by funds from
family in the US, very cheaap to live. The remains of the Hmong
, who served for the US during the Vietnam War, remain in the
jungle, living off robbing travellers, the busses carried armed
guards. Now and again the army or police would run a search for
drugs or druggies, hauling off unfortunates who are caught to be
punsihed (Hey, just like here!)

Post by High Priest
I would not call Bangkok greedy and exploitative. From the moment I
arrive at my favorite shopping places, Pantip Plaza or Fortune City, I
am assaulted by touts trying to sell me porn DVDs or some other shit.
But it's easy to put on a happy face, ignore the and just power ahead.
I shop for computer software (yes, I'm one of the naughty people who
have no conscience about buying pirate DVDs) and pretty clothes for my
wife, daughters and photo models. I always am treated with courtesy by
pleasant people.
I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!

I have arthritis as well. Most medicines for it will affect you over time.
So I don't, except for dispirin. I recommend a book, "Bad Science",
will change your opinions!

Post by High Priest
Bangkok's pollution is not so great. A hot day, humid, air pollution
and maybe a smell from polluted rivers combine to make the experience
not so great. That's really the main reason why I go down to Pattaya.
Cooler, less pollution, ocean beaches and breezes. That's the place for
me.
I have not gone out into the countryside. But you're right, i think
it's a must-do for visitors. It's just that I'm not a touristy sort of
person. The only reason I'm there in the first place is to get a good
sleep in a proper bed. So I never have enough time for sightseeing.

He said that there aare no traffic lights, just blaring horns and violent
braking.

Post by High Priest
Andrew commented

Post by maus
I think I'll be voting for LA.

Of course we don't know his daughter but we did get a little look into
her personality from Andrew's earlier comments. I think Los Angeles
would be less-attractive for her than Pattaya.
In Pattaya, she can walk everywhere or go by inexpensive baht bus.
Accommodation, food, clothing, all cheap.
In Los Angeles, a rental car will be essential, hotel cost an arm and a
leg and everything you want to visit as a tourist is "way over there
somewhere". I spent two years there, living in Laguna Beach and working
in Hollywood. I spent half my life on the 405 freeway. Everything a
tourist might be interested in will cost some sort of money or a big
time investment.

Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.

Post by High Priest
<http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/problem/authority/>
Andre says "Paid nothing so far unless you count board & lodging" so I
think she should really take steps. She might find herself receiving a
five figure windfall.

Post by maus
[I'm] glad I took out travel insurance for her which includes
legal cover.

Andrew, be careful. I'm not sure what you mean here but, so far, I
haven't read anything that might give rise to a traditional travel
insurance claim.

[Buddenbrooks]

Post by maus
Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.

I don't know about Ireland but the UK is a generation or two away from
third world status.
The in phrase on the news is economies need either commodities,
manufacturing or capability to innovate.

Britain has no commodities and manufacturing has been destroyed so that
leaves innovation.
Innovation requires education. We are introducing a £30,000 pound fine for
all those attempting to gain an education.
Which is roughly 2 years post graduate take home pay. Perhaps Howard could
say which other 'criminal offence' carries a
£30k or 2 years loss of freedom penalty.


It will be interesting to see what happens to Universities when students pay
the full market rate. I suspect many will look globally for universities to
study at. Countries offering a similar or better standard with better part
time work opportunities
will be attractive. If you want to study languages, perhaps in country might
be better.

[maus]

Post by Buddenbrooks

Post by maus
Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.

I don't know about Ireland but the UK is a generation or two away from
third world status.
The in phrase on the news is economies need either commodities,
manufacturing or capability to innovate.
Britain has no commodities and manufacturing has been destroyed so that
leaves innovation.
Innovation requires education. We are introducing a £30,000 pound fine for
all those attempting to gain an education.
Which is roughly 2 years post graduate take home pay. Perhaps Howard could
say which other 'criminal offence' carries a
£30k or 2 years loss of freedom penalty.
It will be interesting to see what happens to Universities when students pay
the full market rate. I suspect many will look globally for universities to
study at. Countries offering a similar or better standard with better part
time work opportunities
will be attractive. If you want to study languages, perhaps in country might
be better.

a) There are far too many going to uni. There simply are not that many of
those sort of jobs for them later. Hard fact. I know, I have relatives
who did well in university, now unemployed, but simply will not do real
work, as in sweaty stuff.

Ireland is a real, complete mess. (For one instance, lecturers are paid
around twice UK salaries). I don't know what is the way out of the present
crises for our countries, but the Milton Freidman inspired US and UK model
is not working.

Oh, another thing, unemployment payment here is far too high, people in
Mazuria, northern Poland , get less in wages in a job than Irish people
get in welfare. So, they move here and do the sort of necessary work that
is needed to keep society going.

(The same sort of situation that was in the UK in the 1950's, when West
Indians were brought in to do the sort of work that the English would
no longer do.)

[High Priest]

Post by maus
Not my opinions, I must confess, but my son's. He went to Bankok,
then by bus to Cambodia, and around via Vietnam and Laos. Loved
the countryside, hated Bankok.

Because ‹ by definition ‹ the countryside and a big city are chalk and
cheese, maybe it's possible you simply can't love both.

I've also heard that the countryside is beautiful. And I've heard that
Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, big cities in their own right but up North,
are much nicer than Bangkok. For a start, the climate must be much
nicer because those cities are up in the hills a bit and further away
from the equator. On the other side of the coin, they're not near the
ocean. Being a New Zealander, I can't really contemplate being too far
from an ocean, one reason why I wan't happy in Moscow.

I understand that, in the countryside, it's either possible or even
likely, that you will come into contact with elephants! I imagine
that's enough to frighten/amaze/tantalize/surprise/excite people. It
sure would be a different world for me. I can imagine that this will be
one reason why visitors love the countryside. (Unless they aren't so
keen on the idea, in which case they might not venture out in the first
place.)

People being what they are, I can imagine a statistician pointing out
that almost the only people who will venture out into the countryside
are those who are predisposed to love the experience anyway so, when we
hear an opinion, it is almost certain to be favorable. By contrast,
anyone visiting Thailand is obliged to experience Bangkok, love it or
hate it, so the reports are bound to include some haters.

Many of the countries we're likely to be more-familiar with than
Thailand have a large proportion of their population in cities. I
understand that's not quite correct in Thailand. I think I've read that
a much higher than usual proportion of the population live in the
countryside, in small villages.

Again, there is another side to that coin. Poverty is endemic. Many
living in the villages have no electricity or running water. Not
everyone, of course, and I understand many of them are quite content
with their circumstances. I think it was in the countryside that
Thaksin Shinawatra found his strongest support because he was genuinely
concerned to better the lot of the poorer people. Hence the ongoing
support for him still today in the form of the "red shirts".

Wow. His Wikipedia entry runs to 42 pages!

Poor families in the countryside who have daughters can make themselves
a pretty penny by sending their girls to the city, arranged by a large
number of recruiting agents. Although prostitution is technically
illegal, Thailand has a very different view of sexual matters than many
others, specially in the English-speaking world, where everything
sexual is a big frightener for many. In Thailand, recreational sex is
accepted as ok provided it's in private. (Kissing in public frowned
upon). The girls from the countryside see themselves as income-earners
for the family and many are quite proud of being able to provide.

This applies even to children. Even pre-teen prostitutes are ubiquitous
and are generally accepted by Thais who, however, are obliged to be
hypocritical when speaking about it in public, pretending to condemn
sex with children, in order not to offend the English-speaking world
who, as tourists, are a significant income-earner for the country. But
discuss the matter in private with a Thai who trusts you not to betray
them and they will be open with their opinions. They are happy ‹ who
are we to say its wrong when we live in such different circumstances.
The girls send back significant sums of money and this improves the
lifestyle of not only the immediate family but often helps the whole
village. Parents are proud of the success of their girls and families
without girls to send, are envious.

I don't frequent the many bars in Bangkok or Pattaya. I'm not into that
scene but it's obvious to me that 80% of the tourists are there
primarily for sex. Patpong is a small district in Bangkok where sex is
almost the only thing happening. Many years ago now, I met the owner of
the whole district. I'd done a favour for his office so he took me on a
tour of his establishments, buying me a beer in every place. The thing
that impressed me the most was that his girls ‹ I saw them as dancers ‹
were so much prettier than the average "girl in the street". The
reason: they were all recruited in the Northern countryside. Imagine my
surprise when I went for a pee and a girl started massaging my
shoulders while I was busy!

Also in the countryside is a thriving industry, smuggling uncut
gemstones from Burma then cutting and mounting them. This is also
popular in Bangkok and I have visited a couple of the places where the
gems are cut, polished then mounted in beautiful settings. I spoke with
the workers when I could find one who spoke English and they were happy
as hell. Nice, indoor work, fair wages, sitting down in clean, cool
circumstances...better than many of the poor buggers in the city.

Counterfeit goods is also a thriving industry. Along Sukhumvit Road you
can buy fake anything. The whole footpath is a sea of watches,
jewellery, clothing, perfumes, DVDs...even DVDs of child porn are
available in large quantities, offending a proportion of visitors but
none of the locals.

I specially love pewter so this is where I buy my Selangor pewter wine
goblets but you have to test to make sure they're not lead or aluminium
fakes.

<http://www.royalselangor.com/rs2/index.php>

Post by maus
He said that at night in the inns,
lumps of opium were available. Some aging US hippies that went
there and remained in a drugged dream, supported by funds from
family in the US, very cheaap to live. The remains of the Hmong
, who served for the US during the Vietnam War, remain in the
jungle, living off robbing travellers, the busses carried armed
guards. Now and again the army or police would run a search for
drugs or druggies, hauling off unfortunates who are caught to be
punsihed (Hey, just like here!)

My god, this is so different from my understanding. You mention the
vietnam war. Could it be these comments of your son come from many
years ago? I've never heard of armed guards on a bus and, as I said
earlier, I've never heard of narcotics being readily available.
Available yes, but not "all over the place", same as everywhere else.
(I use the word "narcotics" in its proper sense. I'm pedantic about
language matters. The US police, hell all police these days, use the
word as a synonym for "illegal recreational drug" whereas its
dictionary meaning is limited to drugs from the opium poppy only. So
narcotics include opium, morphine, codeine, fentanyl but not cocaine,
amphetamines etc)

Heroin is available, smuggled in from Burma usually, but I never
thought it was common. Maybe it's just because I'm not into that scene
either. But my friends know that I (used to) take morphine for the
arthritis pain so, if there were an opportunity to buy some, they
probably would've suggested it. Although they surely knew I would not
be interested.

Methamphetamine ("ya ba" in Thailand, "P" in New Zealand, "ice" in
America) is more or less somewhat common. This is most unfortunate
because, unlike marijuana, narcotics, cocaine (but in common with a few
other recreational substances) it eventually turns a typical user into
a crazed, violent moron. Thais are so peace-loving, you can be certain
that any angry guy on the street is a user. Pity.

Probably Methylenedioxymethamphetamine too ("ecstasy") since they're so
closely-related.

The government attitude to drug use is extreme. As it also is in
Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on. The users not summarily shot
by the police or executed by court order are incarcerated for many long
years in appalling circumstances. If I were a druggie, there is no way
I would indulge the habit in SE Asia. What a great way to pick up some
easy cash ‹ tap a likely-looking foreigner on the shoulder, sell him
some stuff then tell the police.

Post by maus

Post by High Priest
I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!

I have arthritis as well. Most medicines for it will affect you over time.
So I don't, except for dispirin. I recommend a book, "Bad Science",
will change your opinions!

I share the frustrations and criticisms of Ben Goldacre. This is
undoubtedly an excellent book.

There was a documentary on television here about six months ago "Fat
Head" that impressed me so much about the junk food/diet industry, I
bought the DVD then made a copy for my GP. <http://fathead-movie.com>
but the author made a mistake, I think, by giving it a humorous tone.
Unhelpful for a serious documentary.

But I don't imagine that Goldacre would condemn quality analgesics like
morphine, tramadol, oxycodone for treatment of serious pain. While you
might say that "most medicines...will affect you over time" do you
exclude aspirin? Because you take it?

Anyway, I'm not convinced that most medicines will affect you
_adversely and irreversibly_ over time. Was that what you are
asserting? I believe morphine is a safe, effective analgesic and
non-addictive when used properly.

Heroin too. I well remember a BBC documentary from many years ago now,
when the producers took their cameras to several English hospices. Dear
old ladies dying from cancer, being given heroin to manage the pain. Or
maybe it was morphine. Doesn't matter much anyway. None reported
enjoyable experiences or even addiction when their treatment was
stopped on recovery. This agrees with my GP, hospital surgeons and
anaesthetists who tell me that my morphine, provided it is taken to
alleviate extreme pain, will bypass the pleasure centre of the brian
and not give me pleasurable feelings and not become addictive. And so
it proved to be. After three years of medical problems, my surgery
finally came to an end in May this year. By june or july I was able to
stop the morphine and there has been not one subsequent complaint from
my brain.

Post by maus
He said that there aare no traffic lights, just blaring horns and violent
braking.

Nope. There are traffic lights alright. The phases are much longer than
I'm used to.

Post by maus
Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.

So your girl is home now? Bet you're glad.

[maus]

Post by High Priest
I've also heard that the countryside is beautiful. And I've heard that
Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, big cities in their own right but up North,
are much nicer than Bangkok. For a start, the climate must be much
nicer because those cities are up in the hills a bit and further away
from the equator. On the other side of the coin, they're not near the
ocean. Being a New Zealander, I can't really contemplate being too far
from an ocean, one reason why I wan't happy in Moscow.

You will notice that i write nothing adverse about NZ, because
a) I consider it the best country in the world (outside .ie)
b) I have it filed in my mind as a bolthole!

Post by High Priest
Again, there is another side to that coin. Poverty is endemic. Many
living in the villages have no electricity or running water. Not
everyone, of course, and I understand many of them are quite content
with their circumstances. I think it was in the countryside that
Thaksin Shinawatra found his strongest support because he was genuinely
concerned to better the lot of the poorer people. Hence the ongoing
support for him still today in the form of the "red shirts".

Different views of politics, and , I suppose ethics. Even here, people
are inclined to overlook corruption, if its combined with ability and
social concern.

Post by High Priest
Also in the countryside is a thriving industry, smuggling uncut
gemstones from Burma then cutting and mounting them. This is also
popular in Bangkok and I have visited a couple of the places where the
gems are cut, polished then mounted in beautiful settings. I spoke with
the workers when I could find one who spoke English and they were happy
as hell. Nice, indoor work, fair wages, sitting down in clean, cool
circumstances...better than many of the poor buggers in the city.
Counterfeit goods is also a thriving industry. Along Sukhumvit Road you
can buy fake anything. The whole footpath is a sea of watches,
jewellery, clothing, perfumes, DVDs...even DVDs of child porn are
available in large quantities, offending a proportion of visitors but
none of the locals.

Yes, my son came back with lots of counterfeit stuff, mostly rubbish,
but he also brought back some beautiful scented wood carvings.

Post by High Priest
I specially love pewter so this is where I buy my Selangor pewter wine
goblets but you have to test to make sure they're not lead or aluminium
fakes.

Man near here has a pewter making place, reopens every few years under
a different name (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).. He used to have nice stuff.

Post by High Priest

Post by maus
He said that at night in the inns,
lumps of opium were available. Some aging US hippies that went
there and remained in a drugged dream, supported by funds from
family in the US, very cheaap to live. The remains of the Hmong
, who served for the US during the Vietnam War, remain in the
jungle, living off robbing travellers, the busses carried armed
guards. Now and again the army or police would run a search for
drugs or druggies, hauling off unfortunates who are caught to be
punsihed (Hey, just like here!)

My god, this is so different from my understanding. You mention the
vietnam war. Could it be these comments of your son come from many
years ago? I've never heard of armed guards on a bus and, as I said

About 5 . This would be in the Laos- Thai borderlands

Post by High Priest
Heroin is available, smuggled in from Burma usually, but I never
thought it was common. Maybe it's just because I'm not into that scene
either. But my friends know that I (used to) take morphine for the
arthritis pain so, if there were an opportunity to buy some, they
probably would've suggested it. Although they surely knew I would not
be interested.
Methamphetamine ("ya ba" in Thailand, "P" in New Zealand, "ice" in
America) is more or less somewhat common. This is most unfortunate
because, unlike marijuana, narcotics, cocaine (but in common with a few
other recreational substances) it eventually turns a typical user into
a crazed, violent moron. Thais are so peace-loving, you can be certain
that any angry guy on the street is a user. Pity.

Post by maus

Post by High Priest
I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!

I have arthritis as well. Most medicines for it will affect you over time.
So I don't, except for dispirin. I recommend a book, "Bad Science",
will change your opinions!

I share the frustrations and criticisms of Ben Goldacre. This is
undoubtedly an excellent book.

and very funny, in a dak way.

Post by High Priest
There was a documentary on television here about six months ago "Fat
Head" that impressed me so much about the junk food/diet industry, I
bought the DVD then made a copy for my GP. <http://fathead-movie.com>
but the author made a mistake, I think, by giving it a humorous tone.
Unhelpful for a serious documentary.

You can either laugh or cry.. laughing is easier. I visited a friend in
a mental hospital some years ago, and was amazed/alarmed with the many
young, beautiful girls being treated for anorexia. Awful!

Post by High Priest
But I don't imagine that Goldacre would condemn quality analgesics like
morphine, tramadol, oxycodone for treatment of serious pain. While you
might say that "most medicines...will affect you over time" do you
exclude aspirin? Because you take it?

Widely available in Victorian times (laudenum), and regarded as a
harmless medicine.

Oh, Dispirin?.. Basically aspirin, used for thousands of years (aspen
bark), will burn out the lining of the stomach if overused. My grandfather
used drink a bottle of stout with an aspirin at night, (dunno why) it
was blamed for killing him.

Post by High Priest
Anyway, I'm not convinced that most medicines will affect you
_adversely and irreversibly_ over time. Was that what you are
asserting? I believe morphine is a safe, effective analgesic and
non-addictive when used properly.

I was young when weedkillers started being used, old farmer said
to younger who wanted to use them, "Thats stuff is poisonous?",
young farmer replied "I hope so".

(Variation, old farmer to son who wanted to use `bag manure'
"That stuff will force all the good out of the land?", young
farmer "I hope so, it costs enough")

Post by High Priest

Post by maus
Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.

So your girl is home now? Bet you're glad.

that girl would survive anywhere, she has a violent temper. Had a job once
acting as a rape victim in a real-life-police video. Took a few takes to
get it right, the man acting as the rapist got intimidated.

Hey, driving South along the Dublin Cork road couple of years ago,
beyond Kildare I noticed a field of maize, or rather a belt of
maize around the field with a <different> crop in the middle.
During dinner the year after, two Kiwis that were shearing for
me, I told them about this. They said it was common in NZ.
(They were in a gang mostly Irish, and one of the locals
tried a similiar wheeze since, now awaiting jail)

[Buddenbrooks]

Post by maus
You will notice that i write nothing adverse about NZ, because
a) I consider it the best country in the world (outside .ie)
b) I have it filed in my mind as a bolthole!

Having relatives and visited once I tend to agree. However I suspect its
long term future as a european colony is limited.

The pre-european settlers resentment of european presence and the asian
immigration now and into the future will end with
New Zealand being an asian culture.

[caroline]

Post by High Priest
Caroline also contributed

Post by caroline
Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better
quality
yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least
one
of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.

Why dismayed, Caroline? Semen exports are common from New Zealand
because, somehow, many of the high-end establishments have managed to
push themselves to the top of the industry. New Zealand horses and
semen are in very big demand from top breeders world-wide.

Dismayed because if they're a high-end enough yard, to hold the quality of
horses generally popular enough to warrant semen export beit TBs or Sport
horses, then in my experience they generally look after their staff better
than Andrew's daughter has experienced. YMMV.

Post by High Priest
Caroline again

Post by caroline

Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling...

Wasn't me, sorry, you've attributed that quote incorrectly.

Good suggestion though, whomever made it.

[Buddenbrooks]

Post by caroline
Dismayed because if they're a high-end enough yard, to hold the quality of
horses generally popular enough to warrant semen export beit TBs or Sport
horses, then in my experience they generally look after their staff better
than Andrew's daughter has experienced. YMMV.

In the end she appears to be safe and possibly wiser, so a useful lesson.

[Lynz]

Post by caroline

Post by caroline
Dismayed because if they're a high-end enough yard, to hold the

quality of

Post by caroline
horses generally popular enough to warrant semen export beit TBs or
Sport horses, then in my experience they generally look after their
staff better than Andrew's daughter has experienced. YMMV.

In the end she appears to be safe and possibly wiser, so a useful lesson.

Is this girl still in NZ, was she in the south Island? or has she gone home?
If she has internet access there many NZ sites, blogs, forums etc she
could enquire about NZ equestrian employers and or jobs. A quick google
would probably find them.
Lynz

[Sarah farrier / GPF Certified]

Post by andrew3001
It seems the taxi-driver, like you, was outraged at their treatment and
has informed them of the various authorities to mention in order to
encourage wage payment. (Including reporting an accident where the other
girl had her foot stood on by a stallion and was suspected broken. She
was allowed a few days off then shouted at for crying due to pain from
her swollen bruised foot when made to work again - and told she was
malingering.)
So my daughter has been in NZ for a month and a half, has worked an
estimated 350 hrs and has not been paid. At the moment she is asking
politely without invoking threat of authorities.

.......

Post by andrew3001
In general terms and in cynical mode, I am wondering if this is the
normal modus operadi; advertise the job far afield and make is sound
attractive by grossly understating hours and grossly overstating
accommodation, food, remuneration etc. If possible, get the girl there
thinking she has stumbled upon a wonderful opportunity, can trust you
and she doesn't need to bother with work permit or tax.
Once she is there, she will have spent so much getting there that
further travel is a problem, another job without a work permit is also a
problem and don't give them internet so they can't find one anyway.
Employer can either overwork and underpay, keep putting off payment, or
promise to pay in kind and the fail to deliver. Make sure they are so
tired by excessive hours that they have no energy to even think about
alternatives. By the time the victim works out that staying is stupid,
employer has done very well out of the arrangment and there are plenty
of new girls ready to take her place. If the girl doesn't have work
permit she will not complain. If she has no backup she very likely will
not bother, and in cases where she does approach authorities, how can
she prove what she says if employer denies it?

I just wanted to post that I too am shocked and outraged at the scenario you've outlined - it's too easy for ruthless employers to take advantage of young (often naive, lacking in much employment experience) workers. You'd hope that there is adequate protection in place to stop these things happening, but I guess anyone who's determined enough can find a way around most of it.

Like you mention, an expensive 30 hour trip home once you've actually landed, been exploited for a while and eventually realised what's happening (all the time thinking that it should be a wonderful opportunity!) is a problem to solve in practical terms, but there's also the emotional one - I'm talking about pride. In my thirty (ok, nearer 40!) years in work, starting at 12 working after class (helping out with stable cleaning in exchange for riding time), I've had a few shockingly bad jobs - none as terrible as the employers mentioned - but I do remember sticking with some awful jobs even when I was being treated badly just because I didn't want to admit defeat! and if I was half way around the world at the same time, that would have only made things worse / go on longer.

xx Sarah xx
Professional Farrier / GPF Certified